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quantum
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: May 27, 2007
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Location: U.K.
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Moshe,as a theoretical physicist by training, I would first like to clarify a couple of your points:
1) Einstein corrected Newton's law through his famous equation E=mc^2. This result showed that mass and energy are equivalent. This result is used everyday in a nuclear reactor which converts mass into energy. The reverse process is observed all the time in high energy physics labs.
2) Newton's law for the gravitational force F between two masses m1 and m2 a distance r apart is F=G m1*m2/r^2.
3) If the soul is energy then it must require energy to create and so is entirely consistent with modern physics.......forget the Newton law, it has been superseded!
4) If the spirit is energy then it can reside within the physical universe making your argument about geometrical congruence irrelevant. I also don't see anything special about the parallelogram law. It applies in Cartesian geometry but not in curved space time (Minkowski space).
5) What are the diagonals in the spiritual world? To try and force congruence between simple geometrical figures in our world and some hypothetical parallel spiritual world seems a bit pointless! First you have to convince us that this parallel spiritual universe actually exists with some sort of measure so that Euclidean geometry applies!
Could you explain the mechanism for creating souls please? Did you create your own soul for example?
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Dave
When you can tunnel, the whole multiverse becomes your oyster! |
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moshe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: The soul and Newton |
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Joined: Mar 26, 2008
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Newtons physics concerning gravity still holds true. My fellow Jew Einstein, found if i remember correctly a small wobble in the orbit of Mars not explained by Newtons' theory and raised a difficulty and produced a theory to answer this difficulty. None the less for all practical purposes Newton's Law has application just as much today as ever.
The error according to Talmudic understanding of the Greeks employment of their logic to understand the movement of planets and stars, whom they considered as gods, that they limited reality to only a physical plane of existence. The Torah does not learn in this manner, still its a cool chiddush, meaning fresh interpretation, to say that the spiritual worlds can occupy the exact same space and the physical worlds. The diagonals in the physical worlds being gravity and radiation, the parallel diagonals in the spiritual world being holiness and kingship.
I can not explain the entire Torah on one foot. Still what i can do, emphasize the nature of a brit. A brit exists as an alliance, both, so to speak, horizontal and vertical. A brit establishes (a) a people (b) diplomacy in and among this "people" and (c) a functional relationship whereby the created can understand their Creator.
The Torah begins with Genesis because upon this foundations stands the entire Torah revelation! That scientists can prove that the world existed more than 6000 years ago, or there abouts, presents no difficulty to the Torah faith because the creation analogy has depth beyond its surface words. Man can only grasp the Creator when he exists in the image of the Creator. The Torah revelation teaches concerning the power of oaths, on Yom Kippor/Day of Atonement the first act of worship centers around the nullification of vows and oaths. A vow falls upon a thing whereas an oath falls upon a person. This general outline in no way plummets the depth of meaning of vows and oaths, each requires a separate tractate in the Talmud to explore their meanings.
Through a Torah oath, I have created 6 souls Nefesh, Ruach, Neshamah, Chyyah, Yechidda, Eish HaElohim. Come shabbot the faces of my soul, with the help of Heaven, I dedicate unto the Elohim - measure for measure. The Elohim swears to give the descendents of Avraham an eternal inheritance of the lands of Canaan - the oath sworn lands. In turn on shabbot, with the help of heaven, I swear to dedicate the faces of my soul, as an eternal inheritance unto the Elohim in these worlds. This inheritance is called Adoni. The King James translated this brit name as Lord. The translations done by the ignorant make me laugh.
As a non bnai brit i honestly do not expect you to understand Torah. I write what i write because i personally object to the notion that Jews have a monopoly upon the Torah. Rather, it seems to me, all people in all generations have an equal opportunity to accept or reject the Torah. Cutting an oath/brit upon a created soul carries tremendous responsibilities. The 2000 year bitter exile of my peoples from our lands occured because we failed to up hold our oath/brit obligations. The pogroms and ghettos that my people endured at the hands of the goyim - I and my people alone bear responsibility for all these sufferings, slanders, oppressions, and murders of my peoples.
The non bnai brit, because they have no brit, there soul lives - like all other creatures - for as long as their body lives. When their body dies their soul also dies. Transforming a temporary soul unto a permanent soul - this in a nutshell explains the revelation of the Torah at Sinai. Hence the Torah begins with creation, and science has placed absolutely no difficulty on the Torah of my bnai brit peoples.
Science and the believers - that's a completely different story. Religion has no credibility. Religion has murdered more people than all the weapons of war combined. The rhetoric of love and one god, its really a joke. Islam and chistianity exist on par with buddism and hinduism, the goyim have their beliefs. My father said it like this: You have the right to swing your fist - until it touches the end of my nose. May the goyim enjoy their religions - בלי עין הרע/meaning without perjorative! |
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moshe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: geometry |
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As touching the merits and value of plane geometry and curved space ...
Employing mathmatics as a tool, serves only as an attempt to communicate unto non bnai brit, who have to Torah backgrounds, Torah concepts. If the model I employ has its faults its because i am such a poor teacher of Torah. |
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moshe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: Newton's theory of gravity and his 1st law of physics |
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| The law of relativity answered up a problem with Newton's theory of gravity. However Newtons law of physics remains intact. Hence the necesity of degrading this law, to merely a theory by employing the law of parallelograms as a difficulty against : "matter can not be created or destroyed." |
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quantum
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your patience Moshe. I think that I am getting the ideas now.
Newtonian physics works well in the classical regime when relativistic effects are negligible and quantum effects can be ignored. Creation and destruction of mass comes into the quantum regime. Your criticism of Newton's 'conservation of mass' is therefore a little unjust as Quantum mechanical phenomenon were unknown in Newton's time. It is quite common in science to find that a theory is only valid within a certain range of parameters and needs to be generalised. Einstein's theory of gravity reduces to Newton's law of gravitational attraction for parameters within the range that Newton had available.
Your 'diagonals' for the physical world are gravity and radiation. I would want to replace 'radiation' with 'electromagnetism' and add further 'diagonals for 'Quantum Mechanics' and 'Subtle Energy'. Subtle energy covers effects not currently included in standard physics, particularly those associated with healing from 'alternative therapies'. Prayer for example might be included. For me your spiritual diagonals would be included within the electromagnetic and subtle energy categories. Susan Pockets for example has discussed the idea that consciousness is electromagnetic in origin.
As a scientist I constantly question accepted dogma and do not accept that 'Man can only grasp the Creator when he exists in the image of the Creator'. I think that I can grasp one facet of the creator through studying the beauty and symmetry of the creation and the magical way that its secrets are revealed to mathematical analysis and experimentation. The path of faith is a 'one off'. You accept it or leave it. There is no way to make further progress in the way that science gradually opens up the secrets of nature.
So you create and destroy soul by making oaths or vows. If I understand you this implies making commitment to the creator through prayer or other forms of meditation. I have no argument with this but would say that Christians also make commitments through prayer.
To say that non bnai brits cannot be expected to understand the Torah and that their souls die with their bodies seems to me to be an amazingly arrogant statement! All of these things are open to interpretation, particularly when based on manuscripts produced so long ago when scholarship and understanding of both the physical and mental worlds was minuscule compared to today.
Still I will look you up in the next world and we can continue this discussion when we have more solid evidence. 
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Dave
When you can tunnel, the whole multiverse becomes your oyster! |
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moshe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: done deal |
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Fair enough. It was a very pleasant conversation and give and take.
regards,
moshe |
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